Discussion:
[PRQ#4382] Deletion Request for b43-firmware
(too old to reply)
Xavion
2015-11-20 03:17:44 UTC
Permalink
i want this file
[1] https://aur.archlinux.org/account/fckinshitag/
[2] https://aur.archlinux.org/pkgbase/b43-firmware/

​Okay, I see what's going on here. This guy has interpreted the "File
Request" link (i.e. in the "Package Actions" section of each package
​'s AUR webpage​
) as being a way of requesting a file (i.e. the package in this case).

To prevent this kind of mixup in future, I would recommend that
​said
link be renamed to "Lodge Request". I don't think anyone would be dumb
enough to
​ interpret this as
a way of requesting lodging at
​the maintainer's
residence.

Daniel Wallace
2015-11-20 06:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Could it not be changed to open or create request?

Both seem better than someone requesting to lodge at the maintainers house
:-)
Post by Xavion
i want this file
[1] https://aur.archlinux.org/account/fckinshitag/
[2] https://aur.archlinux.org/pkgbase/b43-firmware/

​Okay, I see what's going on here. This guy has interpreted the "File
Request" link (i.e. in the "Package Actions" section of each package
​'s AUR webpage​
) as being a way of requesting a file (i.e. the package in this case).
To prevent this kind of mixup in future, I would recommend that
​said
link be renamed to "Lodge Request". I don't think anyone would be dumb
enough to
​ interpret this as
a way of requesting lodging at
​the maintainer's
residence.

Xavion
2015-11-20 06:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Wallace
Could it not be changed to open or create request?
Both seem better than someone requesting to lodge at the maintainers house
:-)
It could be changed to "Eat sh!t and die" for all I care: just get rid of
that word "file" and I'll be happy. I can't fathom why anyone would use
"file" to mean "lodge" when the central topic is computer files.
Mark Weiman
2015-11-20 16:22:58 UTC
Permalink
The word file is a fine word to use and is used correctly.

As a verb, file means to make application (to file a complaint; to file
for a job; to file a request).  Since this follows a definition of the
word, I see no reason to have it need to be changed.

Mark Weiman
Post by Xavion
Post by Daniel Wallace
Could it not be changed to open or create request?
Both seem better than someone requesting to lodge at the
maintainers house
:-)
It could be changed to "Eat sh!t and die" for all I care: just get rid of
that word "file" and I'll be happy.  I can't fathom why anyone would
use
"file" to mean "lodge" when the central topic is computer files.
Ben Oliver
2015-11-20 16:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Weiman
The word file is a fine word to use and is used correctly.
As a verb, file means to make application (to file a complaint; to file
for a job; to file a request). Since this follows a definition of the
word, I see no reason to have it need to be changed.
The 'as a verb' part is what is causing the issue, because as a noun it is
frequently used to refer to something fundamental to Unix systems.

That said, I am surprised this has come up, and it got a laugh out of me!
'File request', in the way it has been misconstrued here, would generally
be written 'Request file' or 'Request this file'.

How many people are going to ignore the options above it and go to the
effort of sending a message that says 'i want this file', expecting magic
file-giving results? Probably not enough to warrant a change.

Weirdly interested to see what comes of this.
David Phillips
2015-11-21 03:11:41 UTC
Permalink
I'm not surprised it's come up. I used to read it and be in a state of
thinking "this means two things" but logic prevailed and I discarded one of
the interpretations. The user who filed the request is obviously a troll,
looking at the username.
Jiachen Yang
2015-11-21 04:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Oliver
Post by Mark Weiman
The word file is a fine word to use and is used correctly.
As a verb, file means to make application (to file a complaint; to file
for a job; to file a request). Since this follows a definition of the
word, I see no reason to have it need to be changed.
The 'as a verb' part is what is causing the issue, because as a noun it is
frequently used to refer to something fundamental to Unix systems.
That said, I am surprised this has come up, and it got a laugh out of me!
'File request', in the way it has been misconstrued here, would generally
be written 'Request file' or 'Request this file'.
How many people are going to ignore the options above it and go to the
effort of sending a message that says 'i want this file', expecting magic
file-giving results? Probably not enough to warrant a change.
Weirdly interested to see what comes of this.
I want to put in my 5 cents here that the use of "file" as a verb in
"File Request" is not so obvious for a non-native speaker like me. I too
once misunderstood the meaning of it and instead sent a email to this
list because I could not find the "Orphan Request" button [1]. Not until
someone pointed out that "File Request" is the button I am looking for
did I noticed that the "File" is actually a verb.
I didn't quite comprehend what is the meaning of "Request a file" should
be in this context, but my brain is just ignoring the thing that it
cannot understand.

For me, a button says "Delete/Orphan/Merge Request" is far more clear
about what it will do.

[1] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/aur-general/2015-April/030474.html
--
Jiachen Yang 楊嘉晚
Graduate School of Information Science and Technology, Osaka University
Blog: https://farseerfc.me/
Gmail: ***@gmail.com
Xavion
2015-11-21 07:31:53 UTC
Permalink
If we wish to continue using the word "file" in this context, "File
Request" should be changed to "File a Request". This would prevent native
English speakers from misinterpreting our use of "file" as a noun.

Having said that, I still feel that "lodge" is a more appropriate term in
this situation. The main reason, and I hope you're concentrating this time
Mark, is that there's no double meaning (i.e. noun vs verb).

For people who don't like "Lodge a Request", there's always "Make a
Request". In fact, I imagine most similar websites would use the latter
term in preference to either of the two mentioned alternatives.

Regardless, clinging to the textbook and saying that nothing needs to be
changed is too rigid and impractical. We're not doing a maths test here!
This is all about practicality and cutting down on confusion.
Mark Weiman
2015-11-21 17:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
If we wish to continue using the word "file" in this context, "File
Request" should be changed to "File a Request".  This would prevent
native
English speakers from misinterpreting our use of "file" as a noun.
As a native English speaker, I have never misinterpreted the meaning of
that link.  There are plenty of words in the English language that have
multiple meanings and it doesn't prevent me or others from confusing
the intent.
Post by Xavion
Having said that, I still feel that "lodge" is a more appropriate term in
this situation.  The main reason, and I hope you're concentrating
this time
Mark, is that there's no double meaning (i.e. noun vs verb).
Lodge also has a noun and verb meaning.  As a noun, it is a temporary
home and as a verb, it can also mean to live in a temporary home.  By
your logic, this makes the word even worse of a choice.
Post by Xavion
For people who don't like "Lodge a Request", there's always "Make a
Request".  In fact, I imagine most similar websites would use the
latter
term in preference to either of the two mentioned alternatives.
Regardless, clinging to the textbook and saying that nothing needs to be
changed is too rigid and impractical.  We're not doing a maths test
here!
This is all about practicality and cutting down on confusion.
Furthermore, I am a firm believer of reading documentation and the Arch
Wiki has a spot on the Arch User Repository page that explains how to
file requests [1] and how to grab the PKGBUILDs then how to install
them [2].  If the link is changed, I think Jiachen Yang has a better
solution.

Mark Weiman

[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository#Other_req
uests
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository#Installin
g_packages
Xavion
2015-11-21 20:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Weiman
As a native English speaker, I have never misinterpreted the meaning of
that link. There are plenty of words in the English language that have
multiple meanings and it doesn't prevent me or others from confusing
the intent.
Actually, that second sentence of yours seems pretty confusing to me. It
looks like you've used a double negative, which gives the opposite meaning
than the one you intended. I just hope you're never tasked with
contributing to any of the Arch Wiki articles.
Post by Mark Weiman
Lodge also has a noun and verb meaning. As a noun, it is a temporary
home and as a verb, it can also mean to live in a temporary home. By
your logic, this makes the word even worse of a choice.
I'm starting to wonder whether you might have Asperger syndrome. Just
because the dictionary says something doesn't mean it fits all contexts.
The word "file" has a double meaning with respect to the AUR, while "lodge"
does not. This is because the AUR's central topic is "files", but it has
nothing to do with "lodges".
Post by Mark Weiman
Furthermore, I am a firm believer of reading documentation and the Arch
Wiki has a spot on the Arch User Repository page that explains how to
file requests [1] and how to grab the PKGBUILDs then how to install
them [2]. If the link is changed, I think Jiachen Yang has a better
solution.
My view is that leaving the AUR in a confusing state and forcing Archers to
go to the Wiki for answers is a pretty stupid idea. Several people have
already said that they were nearly tricked by "File Request". How many
more will need to speak up before you'll finally admit that it's necessary
to make a change?
Ben Oliver
2015-11-21 21:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
Post by Mark Weiman
As a native English speaker, I have never misinterpreted the meaning of
that link. There are plenty of words in the English language that have
multiple meanings and it doesn't prevent me or others from confusing
the intent.
Actually, that second sentence of yours seems pretty confusing to me. It
looks like you've used a double negative, which gives the opposite meaning
than the one you intended. I just hope you're never tasked with
contributing to any of the Arch Wiki articles.
No double negative here.
Post by Mark Weiman
Lodge also has a noun and verb meaning. As a noun, it is a temporary
home and as a verb, it can also mean to live in a temporary home. By
your logic, this makes the word even worse of a choice.
I'm starting to wonder whether you might have Asperger syndrome. Just
because the dictionary says something doesn't mean it fits all contexts.
The word "file" has a double meaning with respect to the AUR, while "lodge"
does not. This is because the AUR's central topic is "files", but it has
nothing to do with "lodges".
Obviously true (the part about the double meaning) but this needn't get
personal.
Post by Xavion
My view is that leaving the AUR in a confusing state and forcing Archers to
go to the Wiki for answers is a pretty stupid idea. Several people have
already said that they were nearly tricked by "File Request". How many
more will need to speak up before you'll finally admit that it's necessary
to make a change?
Perhaps getting people to consult the wiki rather than 'fly-blind' isn't so
bad?
Ensures we are all on the same page.
Xavion
2015-11-21 21:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
No double negative here.
Why not? His sentence was "There are plenty of words in the English
language that have multiple meanings and it doesn't prevent me or others
from confusing the intent." How can "doesn't prevent", coupled with
"confusing", not be considered at least a double negative?
Post by Xavion
Obviously true (the part about the double meaning) but this needn't get
personal.
The debate will go on forever if I don't make him realise in no uncertain
terms that he's completely missing the point. Anyway, suggesting someone
might have Asperger syndrome isn't necessarily an insult. There are plenty
of highly intelligent people working at NASA who have that condition.
Post by Xavion
Perhaps getting people to consult the wiki rather than 'fly-blind' isn't so
bad?
Ensures we are all on the same page.
They won't do it, mate. People are in a hurry to get sh!t done. They want
the AUR's interface to be easy to understand. You can lead a horse to
water, but you can't force it to drink. No matter how much you direct some
people to the Wiki, they will inevitably choose to "fly blind" anyway.
Johannes Löthberg
2015-11-21 22:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
Post by Xavion
No double negative here.
Why not? His sentence was "There are plenty of words in the English
language that have multiple meanings and it doesn't prevent me or others
from confusing the intent." How can "doesn't prevent", coupled with
"confusing", not be considered at least a double negative?
Because that's not how the English language (, or any that I know of,
for that matter,) works.
--
Sincerely,
Johannes Löthberg
PGP Key ID: 0x50FB9B273A9D0BB5
https://theos.kyriasis.com/~kyrias/
Xavion
2015-11-21 23:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Because that's not how the English language (, or any that I know of, for
that matter,) works.
With a name like Johannes Löthberg, I'm going to assume that English isn't
your first language. Therefore, unless you have at least a master's degree
in linguistics, I wouldn't recommend thinking you know more about English
than a native speaker does.

"Doesn't" is the negative of "does", "prevent" is the negative of "allow",
and "confusing" is the negative of "clear". Another example is "I'm not
feeling bad" versus "I'm feeling good". Here, the "not" and the "bad" are
just like the "doesn't" and the "prevent" in Mark's sentence. Capish?

Guys, how much longer is this going to continue? Maybe you have a problem
with my ego, but, for Christ's sake, "Lodge a Request" is clearly better
than "File Request" (in this context). Nonetheless, keep coming at me with
the pointless rebuttals if you so desire.
Johannes Löthberg
2015-11-22 00:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Because that's not how the English language (, or any that I know of, for
that matter,) works.
With a name like Johannes Löthberg, I'm going to assume that English isn't
your first language. Therefore, unless you have at least a master's degree
in linguistics, I wouldn't recommend thinking you know more about English
than a native speaker does.
... You hardly need to have a degree in anything to know more about
English than a native speaker. In fact, native speakers tends to know
less about their language than non-native speakers. Assuming that you
are, in fact, a native speaker of English, you're proving yourself to be
a prime example of this.
"Doesn't" is the negative of "does",
`Doesn't` is the grammatical negation of `does`, yes.
"prevent" is the negative of "allow",
... while `prevent` is the semantic negative of `allow`, not a
grammatical negative.
and "confusing" is the negative of "clear".
Again semantics, not grammar.
Another example is "I'm not feeling bad" versus "I'm feeling good".
Here, the "not" and the "bad" are just like the "doesn't" and the
"prevent" in Mark's sentence.
It is most definitely not. A double negative is a grammatical construct
where two forms of /grammatical/ negation is used in the same sentence.
Using a semantically negative word in the same sentence as a
grammatically negated one does not in any way or form count as a double
negative.
Guys, how much longer is this going to continue? Maybe you have a problem
with my ego, but, for Christ's sake, "Lodge a Request" is clearly better
than "File Request" (in this context).
Hardly better. "File a Request" would be better though, but I don't feel
like rebuilding the translation catalogues, so I'll let Lukas change it.
--
Sincerely,
Johannes Löthberg
PGP Key ID: 0x50FB9B273A9D0BB5
https://theos.kyriasis.com/~kyrias/
Joakim Hernberg
2015-11-22 12:14:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 01:39:05 +0100
Post by Johannes Löthberg
Hardly better. "File a Request" would be better though, but I don't
feel like rebuilding the translation catalogues, so I'll let Lukas
change it.
I'll add my 2 cents to the flames ;)

Seems to me that "File a request" would satisfy all concerned and
be more correct semantically than "File Request", though I doubt it
will stop confused users from clicking on it..

FWIW, though my English is pretty good, I still spent a second or two
contemplating what the link really meant the first time I saw it. To
be pedantic, there are several that could be improved grammatically,
though this is the only confusing one, the use of capitals could also
be made more consistent.

Possibly one could remove "File Request", and replace it with 3
links: "File a deletion request", "File an orphan request" and "File a
merge request". The space is there, and I suppose that this would
remove any possible confusion of its usage.
--
Joakim
Xavion
2015-11-22 20:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by respiranto
I am not a native english speaker and have never heard of the word lodge
as a verb before.
I find that hard to believe, given the lengths you've gone to with your
other point.

It was intended as a reductio ad absurdum. I assumed a statement to be true
Post by respiranto
and proved its absurdity.
Great, but I still can't see how it wasn't a complete waste of time for all
concerned.

Furthermore, all these expressions are actions, constituted by the verb of
Post by respiranto
the action and a noun - the respective object.
Accordingly the meaning of the discussed statement should be obvious in
the context.
You've got all of that knowledge, yet you want us to believe that you've
never seen "lodge" used as a verb.
Post by respiranto
If not, as it has been said before, I can't imagine somebody sending a
deletion request with the serious intention to request a file.
Then you must be saying that the two times this has happened to me in the
last fortnight were purely fictional.

If somebody though does so, we can in almost all cases not expect him to be
Post by respiranto
able to follow or have followed the Installation- or Beginner's Guide.
Yep, so don't send him back to the Wiki for more reading. Just change
"File Request" to "Lodge a Request" or "Make a Request" and be done with
it. Two alternatives would be "Request Modification" and "Administrative
Request", but maybe the longer words would cause problems for the ESL
community.

Seems to me that "File a request" would satisfy all concerned and
Post by respiranto
be more correct semantically than "File Request", though I doubt it
will stop confused users from clicking on it..
"The word "file" has a double meaning with respect to the AUR, while
"lodge" does not. This is because the AUR's central topic is "files", but
it has nothing to do with "lodges". Moreover, the use of the word "file" -
even though it may be correct - is what's causing all of the confusion.
I'm constantly amazed that so many people are unable to understand that.

Possibly one could remove "File Request", and replace it with 3
Post by respiranto
links: "File a deletion request", "File an orphan request" and "File a
merge request". The space is there, and I suppose that this would
remove any possible confusion of its usage.
I think they want it to remain one link for two reasons: to keep the list
concise, and because separate links would take them to the same "request"
screen anyway.
Justin Dray
2015-11-22 21:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Can we just make a poll or something and post it on the feature request for
this? There is a lot of noise and talk and generally shitty behaviour all
around; I (and I assume many others) are signed up to the mailing list for
AUR related news; not petty arguments over english semantics.

- Justin
Luchesar V. ILIEV
2015-11-22 22:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Dray
Can we just make a poll or something and post it on the feature request for
this? There is a lot of noise and talk and generally shitty behaviour all
around; I (and I assume many others) are signed up to the mailing list for
AUR related news; not petty arguments over english semantics.
I totally concur. This discussion is getting less and less productive
with each round of emails.

On the OP's proposal though, IMHO, if such user mistakes happen often
enough, a change is certainly warranted. If they, however, occur only
occasionally, then probably the issue shouldn't be high priority. Free
projects like Arch have only so much available resources, after all,
and lengthy discussions tend to eat those resources up quite fast.

Cheers,
Luchesar
Xavion
2015-11-23 00:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Dray
Can we just make a poll or something and post it on the feature request for
this? There is a lot of noise and talk and generally shitty behaviour all
around; I (and I assume many others) are signed up to the mailing list for
AUR related news; not petty arguments over english semantics.
If you think this thread has become sh!tty, how about you just ignore it
from now on? Also, I don't know why creating a ticket on the Bugtracker
should be a complementary requirement. My view is that a TU should have
made the necessary change immediately after reading my very first message.

I was just proving your statement:

Honestly, I think it's a joke that we even need to have this discussion.


You were also taking the focus off the main issue: that "File Request"
(only) needs to be changed at this point.
Post by Justin Dray
Since when are jokes considered a waste of time?
Maybe that was another attempt at a joke. I can't really tell because I
don't find them funny (no offence). I'm just trying to get a simple
problem solved here, and I don't see the point in turning it into an
elaborate joke.

There's a difference between _understanding_ the syntactical semantics of a
Post by Justin Dray
statement to _knowing_ the meaning of an English word.
(By syntactical semantics I mean the semantics that can be derived from
the syntax.)
I wasn't suggesting there isn't. I just assumed ESLs learn about "lodge"
being used as a verb before they learn all that other crap you were going
on about.

Does it harm you to read these two mails?


Again, I never said it does. I'm simply of the opinion that they're a
waste of time (for you as well).

You miss my point.
Post by Justin Dray
If somebody interpretes a deletion request as a way of getting something,
then he does either understand no English at all, so should get used to use
a dictionary, or lacks the ability of setting up and running an Arch system
completely.
Nor would he be able to use the package on another distribution, by the
way.
No, I got that the first time. The issue I have is that two Archers in the
last fortnight have misinterpreted "File Request" with respect to my
packages alone. I highly doubt that either of them would've bothered to
create an AUR account and lodge these requests if they didn't already have
a running Arch system. They're not total morons.

I want that file too.
Post by Justin Dray
Come on, just give the damn file already and let's get this over with.
FWIW, I consider that to be a fair bit funnier than the aforementioned
jokes.
Post by Justin Dray
I totally concur. This discussion is getting less and less productive
with each round of emails.
Again: Don't like it? Don't read it!

On the OP's proposal though, IMHO, if such user mistakes happen often
Post by Justin Dray
enough, a change is certainly warranted. If they, however, occur only
occasionally, then probably the issue shouldn't be high priority. Free
projects like Arch have only so much available resources, after all,
and lengthy discussions tend to eat those resources up quite fast.
This necessary yet trivial change would take the right person only a few
minutes to implement. The fastest way to render this thread obsolete would
be to do so without further delay. The string could at least be changed to
"Make a Request" (which no-one seems to have a problem with) as an interim
measure.
Mark Weiman
2015-11-23 02:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
Post by Justin Dray
Can we just make a poll or something and post it on the feature request for
this? There is a lot of noise and talk and generally shitty
behaviour all
around; I (and I assume many others) are signed up to the mailing list for
AUR related news; not petty arguments over english semantics.
If you think this thread has become sh!tty, how about you just ignore it
from now on?  Also, I don't know why creating a ticket on the
Bugtracker
should be a complementary requirement.  My view is that a TU should
have
made the necessary change immediately after reading my very first message.
That's one of the functions of the bug tracker, to report bugs and make
enhancement suggestions.  On the bug tracker, there's even a "General
Gripe" task type that this would be probably best for.

Here's a link to creating a task for aurweb: https://bugs.archlinux.org
/newtask/proj2
Post by Xavion
Honestly, I think it's a joke that we even need to have this
discussion.
You were also taking the focus off the main issue: that "File
Request"
(only) needs to be changed at this point.
Post by Justin Dray
Since when are jokes considered a waste of time?
Maybe that was another attempt at a joke.  I can't really tell
because I
don't find them funny (no offence).  I'm just trying to get a simple
problem solved here, and I don't see the point in turning it into an
elaborate joke.
There's a difference between _understanding_ the syntactical
semantics of a
Post by Justin Dray
statement to _knowing_ the meaning of an English word.
(By syntactical semantics I mean the semantics that can be derived from
the syntax.)
I wasn't suggesting there isn't.  I just assumed ESLs learn about
"lodge"
being used as a verb before they learn all that other crap you were going
on about.
Does it harm you to read these two mails?
Again, I never said it does.  I'm simply of the opinion that they're
a
waste of time (for you as well).
You miss my point.
Post by Justin Dray
If somebody interpretes a deletion request as a way of getting something,
then he does either understand no English at all, so should get used to use
a dictionary, or lacks the ability of setting up and running an Arch system
completely.
Nor would he be able to use the package on another distribution, by the
way.
No, I got that the first time.  The issue I have is that two Archers
in the
last fortnight have misinterpreted "File Request" with respect to my
packages alone.  I highly doubt that either of them would've bothered
to
create an AUR account and lodge these requests if they didn't already have
a running Arch system.  They're not total morons.
They may have set up an Arch Linux system, but that doesn't mean they
understand how Arch Linux's build system works or even how to use git
to download the PKGBUILD or click a link that has the word download in
it.
Post by Xavion
I want that file too.
Post by Justin Dray
Come on, just give the damn file already and let's get this over with.
FWIW, I consider that to be a fair bit funnier than the
aforementioned
jokes.
Post by Justin Dray
I totally concur. This discussion is getting less and less
productive
with each round of emails.
Again: Don't like it?  Don't read it!
On the OP's proposal though, IMHO, if such user mistakes happen often
Post by Justin Dray
enough, a change is certainly warranted. If they, however, occur only
occasionally, then probably the issue shouldn't be high priority. Free
projects like Arch have only so much available resources, after all,
and lengthy discussions tend to eat those resources up quite fast.
This necessary yet trivial change would take the right person only a few
minutes to implement.  The fastest way to render this thread obsolete
would
be to do so without further delay.  The string could at least be
changed to
"Make a Request" (which no-one seems to have a problem with) as an interim
measure.
I think all that can be said about this issue has been said and with
that, we should not entertain this issue here anymore.

Mark Weiman
Xavion
2015-11-23 08:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Greetings, Marky Mark. I was wondering whether you'd show your face in
these parts again. I'd like to start by listing a few fragments of the
emails you've sent me recently. I removed the "uc" from the middle of
"f**king" in order to keep things relatively clean here. I've also noted
my replies below your statements as I wouldn't want the likes of you to get
the final word.

Begin {

I really do not care about what you think about me, so if this is how
you make yourself feel validated, I feel sorry for you.
I just think you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't think you
even believe in what you're saying. No-one could be that stupid.

I don't know about making myself feel validated. I'm just trying to get
the desired outcome as quickly as possible.

Are you twelve or are you just a petulant man-child who never got
attention from your parents? You feeling this strongly about a f**king
word is absurd.
I think you're still missing the point. I'm simply trying to defeat all of
the goons who are arguing with me, because that puts me in the best stead
to achieve my goal. My view is that it's absurd how hard you guys are
trying to prevent me from pushing through this incredibly simple fix.

Of all seriousness, when I said I felt sorry for you, I meant it. I
would consult a counselor if I were you since you desperately need help
with your mental situation.
What I find is that, whenever people finally admit to themselves that
they've lost the argument, they start changing the subject and trying to
make me feel small. Given that I can see that this is what they're doing,
it has no impact on my state of happiness.

I wish you the best of luck in life and that you may find the help you
need.
I find it amusing that I'm trying to make things easier for people who are
confused by (part of) the AUR website, while you're trying to convince me
that I've got mental health problems and need to seek counselling. It
looks like that Asperger's comment really hit the spot.

} End

Now Mark, I was hoping that'd be the last I heard from you, especially as
you'd sincerely wished me the best of luck in life. However, it looks like
you've not only come back, but that you've done so with a new-found
authority. BTW, if you're displeased that I've listed the above fragments
here in public, be thankful that I didn't just forward them onto Jackson
College instead.

That's one of the functions of the bug tracker, to report bugs and make
enhancement suggestions. On the bug tracker, there's even a "General
Gripe" task type that this would be probably best for.
Here's a link to creating a task for aurweb: https://bugs.archlinux.org
/newtask/proj2
As mentioned in my last email: "Also, I don't know why creating a ticket on
the Bugtracker should be a complementary requirement. My view is that a TU
should have made the necessary change immediately after reading my very
first message."
They may have set up an Arch Linux system, but that doesn't mean they
understand how Arch Linux's build system works or even how to use git
to download the PKGBUILD or click a link that has the word download in
it.
Firstly, that's quite a long sentence for someone who seems to idolise the
dictionary. Secondly, what you've written directly above provides no
reason not to remove the ambiguity of "File Request". If they're searching
for a file to download, seeing "Lodge a Request" or "Make a Request" would
act as more of a deterrent than "File Request" does.
I think all that can be said about this issue has been said and with
that, we should not entertain this issue here anymore.
I disagree with that completely, and you of all people have Buckley's
chance of shutting me up. I think we should leave this thread active until
a TU finally gets off his rear end and changes "File Request" to "Make a
Request" (in the interim). However, as you've obviously had enough of this
thread, I would suggest that maybe you should move on from it!
David Phillips
2015-11-23 08:26:25 UTC
Permalink
I almost forgot about the translated versions of this string. After
all, aurweb is offered in multiple languages…
Xavion
2015-11-23 08:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Phillips
I almost forgot about the translated versions of this string. After
all, aurweb is offered in multiple languages…
That's already been noted in this thread. If no translators are available
right now, Google Translate would suffice as a temporary solution.
Ben Oliver
2015-11-23 08:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
Post by David Phillips
I almost forgot about the translated versions of this string. After
all, aurweb is offered in multiple languages…
That's already been noted in this thread. If no translators are available
right now, Google Translate would suffice as a temporary solution.
It's already been translated into several languages - you just click the
drop-down.
All the Asturians out there can finally be appeased.
Jens Adam
2015-11-23 17:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:19:53 +1100
Post by Xavion
As mentioned in my last email: "Also, I don't know why creating a
ticket on the Bugtracker should be a complementary requirement. My
view is that a TU should have made the necessary change immediately
after reading my very first message."
That's not how AURweb development works, and TUs don't have anything to
do with that.

So get in line, or even better, send patches:
https://projects.archlinux.org/aurweb.git/
https://bugs.archlinux.org/index/proj2?due[0]=141&do=index&order=id&sort=desc

--byte
(still waiting for #46645 to finally land in production)
Eli Schwartz
2015-11-23 19:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
I think you're still missing the point. I'm simply trying to defeat all of
the goons who are arguing with me, because that puts me in the best stead
to achieve my goal. My view is that it's absurd how hard you guys are
trying to prevent me from pushing through this incredibly simple fix.
I am pretty sure you don't actually want the fix, or you would have
submitted a fix yourself. A four-line fix of a couple text strings...

Instead you started a flame war on the mailing lists. Are you telling me
you genuinely thought that was the best way to get results?
Post by Xavion
I find it amusing that I'm trying to make things easier for people who are
confused by (part of) the AUR website, while you're trying to convince me
that I've got mental health problems and need to seek counselling. It
looks like that Asperger's comment really hit the spot.
I think I was officially diagnosed with mild Asperger's...
I'm pretty sure though that I posted a patch [1] instead of arguing.

Is it possible your analysis of the situation is wrong?
Post by Xavion
As mentioned in my last email: "Also, I don't know why creating a ticket on
the Bugtracker should be a complementary requirement. My view is that a TU
should have made the necessary change immediately after reading my very
first message."
Because a bugtracker ticket is a formal request for a resolution, and
you are guaranteed to get at least enough attention to merit either an
"OK" or a "NO", from someone who is actually responsible for taking care
of the AUR website
And because any-random-TU can't just edit the website willy-nilly, there
is an actual project with a maintainer.
Anyone can contribute. :)
Post by Xavion
Firstly, that's quite a long sentence for someone who seems to idolise the
dictionary. Secondly, what you've written directly above provides no
reason not to remove the ambiguity of "File Request". If they're searching
for a file to download, seeing "Lodge a Request" or "Make a Request" would
act as more of a deterrent than "File Request" does.
Since it appears your primary goal here was to pick a fight, I'd think
you'd be thrilled at the opportunity to bicker over the dictionary, you
ingrate.



[1] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/aur-dev/2015-November/003866.html
--
Eli Schwartz
Justin Dray
2015-11-23 19:10:07 UTC
Permalink
I didn't want to reply all, but good job :)

- Justin
Xavion
2015-11-23 21:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Oliver
It's already been translated into several languages - you just click the
drop-down.
All the Asturians out there can finally be appeased.
We're talking about the *new* text string, Einstein. You know, after "File
Request" is changed to something better?

That's not how AURweb development works, and TUs don't have anything to
Post by Ben Oliver
do with that.
In cases like this, I believe it should be. This change is a no-brainer
and it'd only take the right person a few minutes. If a TU isn't
high-ranking enough, so be it.

I am pretty sure you don't actually want the fix, or you would have
Post by Ben Oliver
submitted a fix yourself. A four-line fix of a couple text strings...
I wanted to leave it to someone higher up, so that I wouldn't have to go
looking through the codebase. I didn't see the point in reinventing the
wheel at my end.

Instead you started a flame war on the mailing lists. Are you telling me
Post by Ben Oliver
you genuinely thought that was the best way to get results?
My intention was to post the first message and leave it at that. Since
then, I've had a constant stream of belligerent buffoons finding every
possible reason to block this change. I can hardly be blamed for not
wanting to let such imbeciles win out over common sense.

I think I was officially diagnosed with mild Asperger's...
Post by Ben Oliver
I'm pretty sure though that I posted a patch [1] instead of arguing.
Be grateful that you're not bipolar-1. You got off lightly with mild
Asperger's. Thank-you very much for submitting the patch. I'm sure it
will be for the better (assuming it's accepted).

Is it possible your analysis of the situation is wrong?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I wasn't suggesting that those
with Asperger's aren't intelligent. As mentioned in an earlier message:
"There are plenty of highly intelligent people working at NASA who have
that condition."

Because a bugtracker ticket is a formal request for a resolution, and
Post by Ben Oliver
you are guaranteed to get at least enough attention to merit either an
"OK" or a "NO", from someone who is actually responsible for taking care
of the AUR website
And because any-random-TU can't just edit the website willy-nilly, there
is an actual project with a maintainer.
Anyone can contribute. :)
In the beginning, I was unaware that the Bugtracker could apply to the AUR
website itself. Maybe I should've done my research first, but I was in a
hurry at the time. Then, after battling hard to stop a bunch of idiots
ruining a good idea, I didn't want to start the whole thing over again
somewhere else.

Since it appears your primary goal here was to pick a fight, I'd think
Post by Ben Oliver
you'd be thrilled at the opportunity to bicker over the dictionary, you
ingrate.
Again, I see it in the reverse direction. Several people in this thread
were trying desperately to find little flaws in my statements, and I felt
it necessary to make them look foolish (in order to stop their nonsensical
campaign to shut down a good idea).

I'm not ungrateful towards people who help me out (like you). Some others,
on the other hand, only wanted to shut the whole idea down and leave things
as they are/were. The way I see it, I was just doing what I had to do in
order to get this change pushed through in a timely manner.

Anyway, thanks again for your efforts. I am grateful for the time you've
spent on this. Now that this problem is solved, "respiranto" is welcome to
get back to telling his elaborate jokes (if he so wishes). I won't be
replying further to this thread, unless someone says something directed at
me.

respiranto
2015-11-22 21:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
Post by Xavion
It was intended as a reductio ad absurdum. I assumed a statement to be true
and proved its absurdity.
Great, but I still can't see how it wasn't a complete waste of time for all
concerned.
Honestly, I think it's a joke that we even need to have this discussion.
Since when are jokes considered a waste of time?
Post by Xavion
You've got all of that knowledge, yet you want us to believe that you've
never seen "lodge" used as a verb.
There's a difference between _understanding_ the syntactical semantics
of a statement to _knowing_ the meaning of an English word.
(By syntactical semantics I mean the semantics that can be derived from
the syntax.)
Post by Xavion
Then you must be saying that the two times this has happened to me in the
last fortnight were purely fictional.
Does it harm you to read these two mails?
Post by Xavion
Post by Xavion
If somebody though does so, we can in almost all cases not expect him to be
able to follow or have followed the Installation- or Beginner's Guide.
Yep, so don't send him back to the Wiki for more reading. Just change
"File Request" to "Lodge a Request" or "Make a Request" and be done with
it. Two alternatives would be "Request Modification" and "Administrative
Request", but maybe the longer words would cause problems for the ESL
community.
You miss my point.
If somebody interpretes a deletion request as a way of getting
something, then he does either understand no English at all, so should
get used to use a dictionary, or lacks the ability of setting up and
running an Arch system completely.
Nor would he be able to use the package on another distribution, by the way.
Martti Kühne
2015-11-22 21:42:24 UTC
Permalink
I want that file too.
Come on, just give the damn file already and let's get this over with.

cheers!
mar77i
Ralf Mardorf
2015-11-21 21:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

out of curiosity, is it possible to build a sentence with "file
request", "send request" etc.?

"Push the green button to file request."
"You are allowed to send request."

My English is broken, but shouldn't it read

"Push the green button to file a request."
"You are allowed to send a request."

?

A lot of Germans nowadays speak German in a similar clipped form style,
but for the German language it's a no-go, it shows what kind of person
you are. Assumed there's not much space available for a user interface,
then it's tolerated in Germany to use this kind of clipped form.

IMO "file request" is not hard to understand, especially if you want to
request something and no other option is available, but I wonder if
it's closer to Oxford English or South Central Los Angeles street gang
language.

My 0,02€ donation to the bike shed,
Ralf
Xavion
2015-11-21 22:22:56 UTC
Permalink
There's plenty of room for it to be "File a Request", and it would be more
grammatically correct. Your English is pretty good, just like that of the
other ESLs who've contributed to this thread.

Honestly, I think it's a joke that we even need to have this discussion.
Anyone who argues against making this obvious/simple change for the better
would have to be profoundly stubborn or just plain stupid.
Simon Hanna
2015-11-21 23:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
There's plenty of room for it to be "File a Request", and it would be more
grammatically correct. Your English is pretty good, just like that of the
other ESLs who've contributed to this thread.
Honestly, I think it's a joke that we even need to have this discussion.
Anyone who argues against making this obvious/simple change for the better
would have to be profoundly stubborn or just plain stupid.
It looks this thread is on it's way to become spam...
You got a couple of spam requests this month. I went back a couple of
months and coudn't find any requests related to you.
If it really was a Problem, I guess the TUs would want to change that
themselves. Afterall they are the ones that would be really affected by
that problem.

I don't think english speakers are the problem here. For all the others,
there is something called different translations. And whatever you do,
if you have some kind of input form, you'll get spam.
Xavion
2015-11-22 02:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Hanna
It looks this thread is on it's way to become spam...
Why? Is it because you don't like watching me romping to victory?
Post by Simon Hanna
You got a couple of spam requests this month. I went back a couple of
months and coudn't find any requests related to you.
That indicates exponential growth.
Post by Simon Hanna
If it really was a Problem, I guess the TUs would want to change that
themselves. Afterall they are the ones that would be really affected by
that problem.
Prior to my opening of this thread, I don't think the TUs realised why they
were getting these "file requests". This is the main reason I opened it.
Post by Simon Hanna
I don't think english speakers are the problem here. For all the others,
there is something called different translations. And whatever you do, if
you have some kind of input form, you'll get spam.
I am a native English speaker and even I had to do a double-take when I
first saw "File Request". For the record, both natives and ESLs have
reported having difficulty interpreting it.

Since there's a new "Gospel of Mark" outside of the Christian Bible
Post by Simon Hanna
that I have not written and is somehow about me (that I have not read
yet, please send me a copy), it would probably say to read
documentation and understand what you are using before you use attempt
to use it. If this person is being serious, he should be made aware of
the documentation available.
See my earlier email about leading a horse to water.
Post by Simon Hanna
Also what does the gun laws in the United States have to do with any
part of this? Usually the people who use those guns are familiar with
how to use one.
They are both systemic flaws that need to be fixed.
Post by Simon Hanna
This is a case where ignorance is causing an issue and I only think it
is a trivial problem (or lack of).
IMHO, the fix (i.e. "Lodge a Request") is even more trivial than the
problem itself.

Following the argumentation that every written expression must be possibly
Post by Simon Hanna
put in a correct english sentence, the whole table would have to be changed
_The_ Package Actions
Post by Simon Hanna
View _the_ PKGBUILD / View _any_ Changes
Download _the_ snapshot
Search _for_this_package_in_the_ wiki
Flag _this_ package out-of-date
Vote for this package | Remove _my_ vote
Notify _me_ of new comments | Disable _any_ notifications
[ Manage _the_ Co-Maintainers ]
File _a_ Request
[ Disown _this_ package ]
No, only the confusing ones should be changed. I thought this would've
been pretty obvious.

Some changements may not be strictly necessary to form a correct english
Post by Simon Hanna
sentence, however the extracted part of that sentence would then lack the
"Dear Server, would you please disable notifications completely for me?"
Probably this sentence could be simplified while maintaining its
correctness, but stripping of some semantically necessary information, more
precisely which notifications are to be disabled.
I don't see the point in all of that. We just need to change "File
Request" to "Lodge a Request" (or similar).

Though I am not a native speaker either, so any improvements or corrections
Post by Simon Hanna
are welcome.
I don't know why anyone would bother. It's all collateral that can be
flushed away.

... You hardly need to have a degree in anything to know more about English
Post by Simon Hanna
than a native speaker. In fact, native speakers tends to know less about
their language than non-native speakers. Assuming that you are, in fact, a
native speaker of English, you're proving yourself to be a prime example of
this.
It's true that ESLs are forced to pay more attention to specifics than
natives are. However, there are also times when ESLs miss the boat
completely (through lack of know-how).
Post by Simon Hanna
It is most definitely not. A double negative is a grammatical construct
where two forms of /grammatical/ negation is used in the same sentence.
Using a semantically negative word in the same sentence as a grammatically
negated one does not in any way or form count as a double negative.
That's where you're wrong, Pal. The (English) Wikipedia article on the
"double negative" lists exactly the example I provided for you ("I'm not
feeling bad" versus "I'm feeling good"). So, back to my original
point: "Unless
you have at least a master's degree in linguistics, I wouldn't recommend
thinking you know more about English than a native speaker does".
Post by Simon Hanna
Hardly better. "File a Request" would be better though, but I don't feel
like rebuilding the translation catalogues, so I'll let Lukas change it.
You seem to be about as clued up on this as Marky Mark is. As mentioned in
an earlier email: "The word "file" has a double meaning with respect to the
AUR, while "lodge" does not. This is because the AUR's central topic is
"files", but it has nothing to do with "lodges".
respiranto
2015-11-22 12:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
IMHO, the fix (i.e. "Lodge a Request") is even more trivial than the
problem itself.
I am not a native english speaker and have never heard of the word lodge
as a verb before.
Post by Xavion
Post by Xavion
Following the argumentation that every written expression must be possibly
put in a correct english sentence, the whole table would have to be changed
_The_ Package Actions
View _the_ PKGBUILD / View _any_ Changes
Download _the_ snapshot
Search _for_this_package_in_the_ wiki
Flag _this_ package out-of-date
Vote for this package | Remove _my_ vote
Notify _me_ of new comments | Disable _any_ notifications
[ Manage _the_ Co-Maintainers ]
File _a_ Request
[ Disown _this_ package ]
No, only the confusing ones should be changed. I thought this would've
been pretty obvious.
Post by Xavion
[...]
I don't see the point in all of that. We just need to change "File
Request" to "Lodge a Request" (or similar).
It was intended as a reductio ad absurdum. I assumed a statement to be
true and proved its absurdity.

Furthermore, all these expressions are actions, constituted by the verb
of the action and a noun - the respective object.
Accordingly the meaning of the discussed statement should be obvious in
the context.
If not, as it has been said before, I can't imagine somebody sending a
deletion request with the serious intention to request a file.

If somebody though does so, we can in almost all cases not expect him to
be able to follow or have followed the Installation- or Beginner's Guide.
respiranto
2015-11-22 00:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
There's plenty of room for it to be "File a Request", and it would be more
grammatically correct. Your English is pretty good, just like that of the
other ESLs who've contributed to this thread.
Following the argumentation that every written expression must be
possibly put in a correct english sentence, the whole table would have
to be changed to:

_The_ Package Actions
View _the_ PKGBUILD / View _any_ Changes
Download _the_ snapshot
Search _for_this_package_in_the_ wiki
Flag _this_ package out-of-date
Vote for this package | Remove _my_ vote
Notify _me_ of new comments | Disable _any_ notifications
[ Manage _the_ Co-Maintainers ]
File _a_ Request
[ Disown _this_ package ]

Some changements may not be strictly necessary to form a correct english
sentence, however the extracted part of that sentence would then lack
the respective syntactical context, e.g.:
"Dear Server, would you please disable notifications completely for me?"
Probably this sentence could be simplified while maintaining its
correctness, but stripping of some semantically necessary information,
more precisely which notifications are to be disabled.

Though I am not a native speaker either, so any improvements or
corrections are welcome.
Post by Xavion
Honestly, I think it's a joke that we even need to have this discussion.
I agree.
Post by Xavion
Anyone who argues against making this obvious/simple change for the better
would have to be profoundly stubborn or just plain stupid.
I do not agree.
Giovanni 'ItachiSan' Santini
2015-11-21 18:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for top-reply, but GMail on Android has no way to change it.
Anyways, I can suggest some ways:
- File a Request (already suggested)
- Open a Request
- Make a Request

I'm not a native English speaker (I'm Italian) but I think this can be a good alternative.

I, sometimes, do have some misunderstanding with "File request" but "File a request" would be a really clear way of handling it.

Giovanni Santini
My blog: http://giovannisantini.tk
My code: https://github.com/ItachiSan
My code, again: https://gitlab.com/u/ItachiSan
My Twitter: https://twitter.com/santini__gio
My Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/giovanni.santini
My Google+: https://plus.google.com/+GiovanniSantini/
My GPG: 2FADEBF5
Post by Mark Weiman
Post by Xavion
If we wish to continue using the word "file" in this context, "File
Request" should be changed to "File a Request".  This would prevent
native
English speakers from misinterpreting our use of "file" as a noun.
As a native English speaker, I have never misinterpreted the meaning of
that link.  There are plenty of words in the English language that have
multiple meanings and it doesn't prevent me or others from confusing
the intent.
Post by Xavion
Having said that, I still feel that "lodge" is a more appropriate
term in
this situation.  The main reason, and I hope you're concentrating
this time
Mark, is that there's no double meaning (i.e. noun vs verb).
Lodge also has a noun and verb meaning.  As a noun, it is a temporary
home and as a verb, it can also mean to live in a temporary home.  By
your logic, this makes the word even worse of a choice.
Post by Xavion
For people who don't like "Lodge a Request", there's always "Make a
Request".  In fact, I imagine most similar websites would use the
latter
term in preference to either of the two mentioned alternatives.
Regardless, clinging to the textbook and saying that nothing needs to
be
changed is too rigid and impractical.  We're not doing a maths test
here!
This is all about practicality and cutting down on confusion.
Furthermore, I am a firm believer of reading documentation and the Arch
Wiki has a spot on the Arch User Repository page that explains how to
file requests [1] and how to grab the PKGBUILDs then how to install
them [2].  If the link is changed, I think Jiachen Yang has a better
solution.
Mark Weiman
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository#Other_req
uests
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/inde
Justin Dray
2015-11-21 18:26:36 UTC
Permalink
I can understand someone getting confused when they first click on it; and
any of the suggested name changes sound pretty logical. But, how does
someone click on that, then select deletion or merge to some other request
type, enter text and then click submit without realizing 'This probably
wasn't a download link'

- Justin
Xavion
2015-11-21 21:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Dray
I can understand someone getting confused when they first click on it; and
any of the suggested name changes sound pretty logical. But, how does
someone click on that, then select deletion or merge to some other request
type, enter text and then click submit without realizing 'This probably
wasn't a download link'
They probably go there thinking it's the only way to "request a file".
Once they're there, they have difficulty choosing between "deletion",
"merge", and "orphan". They don't want to proceed, but they know of no
other way to request that file :-). So, they randomly choose one of those
options and send their unrelated request away. Essentially, they only
proceed because they think the AUR doesn't have an inbuilt file requesting
facility.

I think people would be surprised at just how often this happens. Less
than a fortnight ago, someone else did the same thing with another of my
packages. That guy filed both deletion and orphan requests with the
following comments:
* Deletion: "Hi, Can anybody provide me this package ? Git not found. Use
for bcm4312 . Thanx"
* Orphan: "L can't find this package , can you upload it somebody ? Thanx"

I liken this problem to that of gun laws in the US. If nothing is done
about them, the mass shootings will continue. Similarly, if "File Request"
isn't at least changed to "File a Request", the occasional Arch newbie will
annoy/worry package maintainers with these bogus requests. Still,
according to the Gospel of Mark, it doesn't need to be changed because *he*
has no trouble interpreting the meaning of the link in its current form.
Mark Weiman
2015-11-22 00:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavion
Post by Justin Dray
I can understand someone getting confused when they first click on it; and
any of the suggested name changes sound pretty logical. But, how does
someone click on that, then select deletion or merge to some other request
type, enter text and then click submit without realizing 'This probably
wasn't a download link'
They probably go there thinking it's the only way to "request a file".
Once they're there, they have difficulty choosing between "deletion",
"merge", and "orphan".  They don't want to proceed, but they know of
no
other way to request that file :-).  So, they randomly choose one of
those
options and send their unrelated request away.  Essentially, they
only
proceed because they think the AUR doesn't have an inbuilt file requesting
facility.
I think people would be surprised at just how often this
happens.  Less
than a fortnight ago, someone else did the same thing with another of my
packages.  That guy filed both deletion and orphan requests with the
* Deletion: "Hi, Can anybody provide me this package ? Git not found. Use
for bcm4312 . Thanx"
* Orphan: "L can't find this package , can you upload it somebody ? Thanx"
I liken this problem to that of gun laws in the US.  If nothing is
done
about them, the mass shootings will continue.  Similarly, if "File
Request"
isn't at least changed to "File a Request", the occasional Arch newbie will
annoy/worry package maintainers with these bogus requests.  Still,
according to the Gospel of Mark, it doesn't need to be changed
because *he*
has no trouble interpreting the meaning of the link in its current form.
Since there's a new "Gospel of Mark" outside of the Christian Bible
that I have not written and is somehow about me (that I have not read
yet, please send me a copy), it would probably say to read
documentation and understand what you are using before you use attempt
to use it.  If this person is being serious, he should be made aware of
the documentation available.

Also what does the gun laws in the United States have to do with any
part of this?  Usually the people who use those guns are familiar with
how to use one.

This is a case where ignorance is causing an issue and I only think it
is a trivial problem (or lack of).

Mark Weiman
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